I would like to get a discussion going regarding money, saving, investing, giving, debt, and Jesus. This is a topic that is often thought to be too personal to discuss. Rarely do we invite people into our financial lives to keep us accountable. There is something wrong when a financial adviser knows more about your use of money than your closest friends and accountability partners.I particularly want to use Dave Ramsey as a starting point for this discussion. I would be interested to know how many of my readers are familiar with Dave.
For those who don't know who he is, here is a short summary: He does radio shows, seminars, writes book, etc. to help people with financial issues. He emphasizes getting out of debt, saving for retirement, cutting up credit cards, paying off your mortgage, and paying cash for cars. Dave claims to be a Christian and markets his stuff to churches. He even says openly that his principles are Biblically based.
I ran across Dave a month ago when Tim Challies posted this short video on his blog (Drive Free, Retire Rich).
Here are a few things I like about Dave Ramsey:
1. On his radio show, when people ask him, "How are you," he always says, "Better than I deserve." Makes me wonder if he reads CJ Mahaney.
2. It is a good idea to get out of debt as quick as possible.
3. It is a bad idea to keep moving from car payment to car payment.
4. It is a bad idea to buy things you cannot afford.
5. He has some great resources on his website.
However, here are a few concerns I have in just the short time I have observed his message:
1. Sometimes his attitude is harsh and lacks humility. He calls people "stupid" and "bums."
2. His advice is to save, save, save any extra income. Save for college. Save for retirement. Save for emergencies. I can find no where on his website where he encourages people to give, give, give extra income. He does mention giving to the church in some places but it is certainly not emphasized and it is certainly not encouraged beyond the minimum. I just find this out of whack with the Bible. Saving can be done with the right attitude. However, giving is to be the first response of Christians. We are to see the money we have as given to us so that we can further God's Kingdom, not build our own.
Other resources:
1. Here is John Piper answering the question, "Should I invest for retirement?"
2. I love Randy Alcorn's books on money. The Treasure Principle is a life-changing little book. Money, Possessions, and Eternity is THE definitive book on the subject. If you care about honoring God with your money, this is a must read.
I would love to hear your thoughts.
9 comments:
I have never heard of Dave but Larry Burkett.
There are some people (like me before losing the job) just can't save money due to the rising cost of the living. I would love to learn how to be able to do that.
I rather use the money for His Glory.
I know that I will learn something from this. Thank you for sharing this with us.
In Christ Alone,
'Guerite ~ BoldLion
hey justin! i thought i might give my two cents.
i am a dave ramsey fan. ryan and i facilitated one of the FPU (Financial Peace University) classes he offers in Houston, and we hope to get one started here in Arkansas. I do agree with you about some of his harshness on the radio. i don't like it, and i don't want to make any excuses for him as to why he might respond/react that way. I did want to let you know that he does support giving to the church...as the very first thing that you do each month when you budget your money. his whole idea is for people to be out of debt, so they can give more to the church.
i feel like i would take up all the room if i said everything i want to say. if you want anymore information about his process, let me know. ryan and i have been blessed working through the baby steps he promotes.
love ya,
meredith
I haven't ever taken a FPU class but I have been to the website. I feel like trying to find info on tithing there is looking for a needle in a haystack -- or at least for me when I was looking over a year ago it was! I do like Crown Financial much better for that reason alone..
People love to say God wants me to get out of debt but God didn't put ya in debt in the first place. You did. I use "you" generically, of course!
Until people start thinking in Kingdom terms, you'll never be able to manage your money properly. I believe God wants us to give exponentially. Then we will really be able to understand the expanse of His touching on our lives.
My husband and I talked last year about the inheritance we want to leave our children. It had nothing to do with money and everything to do with God!
God bless,
Sallie
We saw Dave Ramsey in San Antonio a few years ago ( we now have no debt). He did emphasize giving. He said also that people who have no debt and no mortgage tend to be more grateful and more generous. He encouraged all of the pastors there to help their flock get out of debt and then bless the church.
I knew this topic would bring some discussion.
Meredith and 22one7,
I love Dave's emphasis on getting out of debt. I appriciate that he encourages tithing.
I just disagree with his premise that wealthy people are freed to give more. It just doesn't work that way for most people. If someone gets passionate about getting out of debt, paying off their mortgage, and pilling up cash, they are going to have a difficult time thinking in terms of giving sacrificially when they have all their ducks in a row. People who think in terms of getting more rarely think in terms of giving till it hurts.
Sallie,
Inheritance is a whole other huge topic. Alcorn suggests that leaving large sums of money to already grown kids only encourages them to be worldly. Now thats counter-cultural.
I wonder if the foundational issue with Ramsey is that he leans toward the “10%ers,” those who think that once you have given your 10%, the rest is basically yours to spend.
I have wanted to hear a debate between R. C. Sproul (10%er extraordinaire) and John Piper (Mr. War-time-Mentality-Give-All-You-Can-Right-Now) on this subject.
Where would Ramsey fit along this continuum? What about you?
JK,
Yea, I do think Dave is all the way on the 10% side.
I want to lean more toward Piper's call for radical war time living. Mainly, because it seems so close to the Bible's actual teaching.
Here is the difference:
Dave advocates radical war-time living in order to build wealth and retire rich.
Piper advocates radical war-time living in order to see the nations worship Jesus.
We give atleast 80% more because we are able. I guess we are the exception to the rule.
Justin,
Chris and I were involved in a young couple's small group specifically on the topic of handling finances and money at our previous church. We read "Your Money Counts" by Howard Dayton, the founder of Crown Financial Ministries. Overall, it was a great, biblically based resource for us(an easy read as well). We also memorized the coordinating scripture to go along with each chapter, so that too was very encouraging. Like most books, I would'nt say that it was 100% on the money(haha) but all in all, a good book worth recommending. Have you read it? If you havent and would like to, we have two copies :)
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