Meditations on God, His Word, and His World (under the grace found only because of Christ Crucified)
Sunday, July 23, 2006
Regenerate Church Membership
This is an issue close to my heart that I have been thinking about deeply. I'll point you to a post by Thabiti Anyabwile, the chairman of the elders at Capitol Hill Baptist where Mark Dever is pastor. Let me know what you think.
8 comments:
Anonymous
said...
So, how do you know who's regenerate and who is not?
This poses a serious problem, and seems to go beyond Scripture. Scripture asks whether or not a person believes. Not all who profess faith have true, saving faith. but we often don't know that for a few years down the road.
What he is arguing for is something only God can know.
Thanks Justin for the link to the post. I am appreciative of your interest in this topic and wish more were. It's vitally important to the health of the church and the well-being of individuals.
I'm not sure, Cavman, where you think the post goes beyond Scripture. I'm in complete agreement with you that finally and perfectly only God knows who is His.
But, it seems to me that Scripture is clear that we should (1) preach the gospel (passim), (2) practice something that looks like what we call church membership (Heb. 10:25; 1 Cor. 5), and (3) practice church discipline (Matt. 18; 1 Cor. 5). The other suggestions in the post are steps that flow prudentially from those three things stated clearly in scripture. And they are aimed at the pastoral responsibility to be faithful in those three issues, not to finally pronounce judgment re: a person's salvation, that the suggestions are made. We are certainly told to do more than just ask whether a person is saved, we're also instructed to guard the flock, to remove the unrepentant, to withold the ordinances from unbelievers and the unrepentant, and so on. And these instructions are given so that we might make distinctions between the church and the world, however imperfectly we do so.
It is sad that we even have to have discussions on wether to have regenerate membership. I don't understand how we justify huge memberships of people that are nowhere to be found. I do beleive there should be something more than just filling out a card. I am not sure about the congregation voting on it. I personally think we do too much voting as it is. The pastors and elders of the church should be sufficient in determining a candidate's membership. IF we do more than sign a card at the end of a service then it will flow more naturally if church discipline is needed in the future.
Amen Shannon! Thats what I was thinking too! I always wondered and have even questioned why one's membership is decided on the vote of the congregation or on the basis of baptism. It has always bothered me. I have yet to recieve an answer beyond "thats the way it has always been done."
I am so thankful though for the church we are in now. The Lord has been so gracious to allow us to be apart of a body that goes beyond tradition. I was so thankful that we had to go through a membership class and write out our testemony!!! The elders of the church lead our class and at the end of the classes we had a special service for the new members. We stood infront of the church and were not voted on, but promised our faithfulness to the Lord and to the body. In turn the congregation promised to come along side of all of us and to encourage or rebuke when nessesary (thats the short version!!!)
We also were strongly encouraged to be baptised- but it was not a prerequisite (sp?) to becoming a member. I loved that our pastor said "you only have to be saved to be a member of the family of God, and that is all we require for you to become a member" I Think that is soo awesome!
Also- we have had many people come to know Christ through this membership process. Some whose testemonies that were not clear, met with the elders and senior pastor- and went over the gospel again....praise the Lord. I think its awesome!
Maybe I'm just hung up on the idea of "regenerate" church membership. Yes, preach the Gospel. If you don't, it isn't a true church. Yes, exercise church discipline. Otherwise, it isn't a true church. Yes, clear the rolls of people who don't show up anymore. But to think we can accurately discern the working of the Spirit and determine someone regenerate ... yes, it would make church life 'easier'. However- have you read any of the NT epistles? Every church had problems. Paul didn't say anything about "regenerate church membership". He emphasized, essentially, repent and believe. Remove the guy who doesn't. But Paul can't be seen arguing for "regenerate" church membership. I just have a very hard time figuring out what the process of discerning it would look like. Am I just missing something? He seems to talk about meaningful membership through most of the post. GREAT!! But he muddies the waters by throwing out the term regenerate church membership.
Sarah, you wrote: "I always wondered and have even questioned why one's membership is decided on the vote of the congregation or on the basis of baptism. It has always bothered me. I have yet to recieve an answer beyond "thats the way it has always been done."
I certainly can't speak for other churches, but we practice the congregational vote as a tangible act of commitment to care for the person we're accepting into membership. We do it for each individual because the body is promising to each individual to provide that love and care. It sounds like the process you went through is designed to do pretty much the same thing. There are a number of ways to skin this cat, I think, and no biblically commanded way.
I'm really glad you've found a church that sounds like it's faithfully caring for the flock of God in that place. I rejoice with you and praise God for faithful churches and shepherds! Praying you abound in every grace and joy of the Lord! Thabiti
Cavman, "Paul can't be seen arguing for 'regenerate' church membership." Hmmm....
I think everywhere you see Paul talking about church members, their behavior, their conversion, etc., he is in effect talking about regenerate church membership. There isn't any place in scripture where Paul or any apostle conceives of church membership as including the unregenerate, the unsaved. That's the case in all of the NT epistles. They consistently draw distinctions between the church and the world, and those distinctions are created by regeneration. Far from muddying the waters, including the idea of regeneration is what clarifies the notion of "meaningful membership."
"I just have a very hard time figuring out what the process of discerning it would look like. Am I just missing something?"
You seem to hear me saying more than I intend to say in using the phrase "regenerate church membership." I don't think I argue in any of the posts that knowing who is or is not regenerate is in our ability or something we can finally pronounce. What I'm saying is that membership should be meaningful, and part of what that means is answering "what does it mean for a church to accept a person into membership?" Well, one thing it means is that the leadership and/or membership of the church "affirms" (and understands themselves to be "affirming") that the person in membership confesses to be and by God's grace lives like a Christian. The process I suggest (and it's only a suggestion, not a biblically prescribed process) is aimed at ascertaining those two things: (a) a credible profession from the person, and (b) the person's testimony of a changed life following conversion. Assuming those things, we assume the person's conversion to be genuine unless and until the person's profession and life of unrepentant sin suggests otherwise.
But again, only the Lord knows who is finally His. We're not trying to peer into the secret knowledge of the Lord. Hope that helps. Thabiti
Thabiti, glad you arrived safely in Cayman. Also glad for your comments. I'm praying for you and look forward to seeing what the Lord does through you.
8 comments:
So, how do you know who's regenerate and who is not?
This poses a serious problem, and seems to go beyond Scripture. Scripture asks whether or not a person believes. Not all who profess faith have true, saving faith. but we often don't know that for a few years down the road.
What he is arguing for is something only God can know.
Thanks Justin for the link to the post. I am appreciative of your interest in this topic and wish more were. It's vitally important to the health of the church and the well-being of individuals.
I'm not sure, Cavman, where you think the post goes beyond Scripture. I'm in complete agreement with you that finally and perfectly only God knows who is His.
But, it seems to me that Scripture is clear that we should (1) preach the gospel (passim), (2) practice something that looks like what we call church membership (Heb. 10:25; 1 Cor. 5), and (3) practice church discipline (Matt. 18; 1 Cor. 5). The other suggestions in the post are steps that flow prudentially from those three things stated clearly in scripture. And they are aimed at the pastoral responsibility to be faithful in those three issues, not to finally pronounce judgment re: a person's salvation, that the suggestions are made. We are certainly told to do more than just ask whether a person is saved, we're also instructed to guard the flock, to remove the unrepentant, to withold the ordinances from unbelievers and the unrepentant, and so on. And these instructions are given so that we might make distinctions between the church and the world, however imperfectly we do so.
It is sad that we even have to have discussions on wether to have regenerate membership. I don't understand how we justify huge memberships of people that are nowhere to be found. I do beleive there should be something more than just filling out a card. I am not sure about the congregation voting on it. I personally think we do too much voting as it is. The pastors and elders of the church should be sufficient in determining a candidate's membership. IF we do more than sign a card at the end of a service then it will flow more naturally if church discipline is needed in the future.
Amen Shannon! Thats what I was thinking too! I always wondered and have even questioned why one's membership is decided on the vote of the congregation or on the basis of baptism. It has always bothered me. I have yet to recieve an answer beyond "thats the way it has always been done."
I am so thankful though for the church we are in now. The Lord has been so gracious to allow us to be apart of a body that goes beyond tradition. I was so thankful that we had to go through a membership class and write out our testemony!!! The elders of the church lead our class and at the end of the classes we had a special service for the new members. We stood infront of the church and were not voted on, but promised our faithfulness to the Lord and to the body. In turn the congregation promised to come along side of all of us and to encourage or rebuke when nessesary (thats the short version!!!)
We also were strongly encouraged to be baptised- but it was not a prerequisite (sp?) to becoming a member. I loved that our pastor said "you only have to be saved to be a member of the family of God, and that is all we require for you to become a member" I Think that is soo awesome!
Also- we have had many people come to know Christ through this membership process. Some whose testemonies that were not clear, met with the elders and senior pastor- and went over the gospel again....praise the Lord. I think its awesome!
Maybe I'm just hung up on the idea of "regenerate" church membership.
Yes, preach the Gospel. If you don't, it isn't a true church.
Yes, exercise church discipline. Otherwise, it isn't a true church.
Yes, clear the rolls of people who don't show up anymore.
But to think we can accurately discern the working of the Spirit and determine someone regenerate ... yes, it would make church life 'easier'.
However- have you read any of the NT epistles? Every church had problems. Paul didn't say anything about "regenerate church membership". He emphasized, essentially, repent and believe. Remove the guy who doesn't. But Paul can't be seen arguing for "regenerate" church membership. I just have a very hard time figuring out what the process of discerning it would look like. Am I just missing something? He seems to talk about meaningful membership through most of the post. GREAT!! But he muddies the waters by throwing out the term regenerate church membership.
Sarah, you wrote:
"I always wondered and have even questioned why one's membership is decided on the vote of the congregation or on the basis of baptism. It has always bothered me. I have yet to recieve an answer beyond "thats the way it has always been done."
I certainly can't speak for other churches, but we practice the congregational vote as a tangible act of commitment to care for the person we're accepting into membership. We do it for each individual because the body is promising to each individual to provide that love and care. It sounds like the process you went through is designed to do pretty much the same thing. There are a number of ways to skin this cat, I think, and no biblically commanded way.
I'm really glad you've found a church that sounds like it's faithfully caring for the flock of God in that place. I rejoice with you and praise God for faithful churches and shepherds! Praying you abound in every grace and joy of the Lord!
Thabiti
Cavman,
"Paul can't be seen arguing for 'regenerate' church membership." Hmmm....
I think everywhere you see Paul talking about church members, their behavior, their conversion, etc., he is in effect talking about regenerate church membership. There isn't any place in scripture where Paul or any apostle conceives of church membership as including the unregenerate, the unsaved. That's the case in all of the NT epistles. They consistently draw distinctions between the church and the world, and those distinctions are created by regeneration. Far from muddying the waters, including the idea of regeneration is what clarifies the notion of "meaningful membership."
"I just have a very hard time figuring out what the process of discerning it would look like. Am I just missing something?"
You seem to hear me saying more than I intend to say in using the phrase "regenerate church membership." I don't think I argue in any of the posts that knowing who is or is not regenerate is in our ability or something we can finally pronounce. What I'm saying is that membership should be meaningful, and part of what that means is answering "what does it mean for a church to accept a person into membership?" Well, one thing it means is that the leadership and/or membership of the church "affirms" (and understands themselves to be "affirming") that the person in membership confesses to be and by God's grace lives like a Christian. The process I suggest (and it's only a suggestion, not a biblically prescribed process) is aimed at ascertaining those two things: (a) a credible profession from the person, and (b) the person's testimony of a changed life following conversion. Assuming those things, we assume the person's conversion to be genuine unless and until the person's profession and life of unrepentant sin suggests otherwise.
But again, only the Lord knows who is finally His. We're not trying to peer into the secret knowledge of the Lord. Hope that helps.
Thabiti
Thabiti, glad you arrived safely in Cayman. Also glad for your comments. I'm praying for you and look forward to seeing what the Lord does through you.
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